Evaluate this tune? Any obvious mistakes?

[astra vxr]

plain and simple you need air temp sensor ! even 1 deg differnce will alter your fueling thats how it works and its even worse on a turbo car

fit one and get it mapped again and you will see the difference straight away carry on the way it is it will end in dead engine

[diracdeltafunct]

plain and simple you need air temp sensor ! even 1 deg differnce will alter your fueling thats how it works and its even worse on a turbo car

fit one and get it mapped again and you will see the difference straight away carry on the way it is it will end in dead engine

Why will it end with a dead engine if I don't have one? Note that my AFR values are not that bad once the engine has warmed up, even at WOT.

[roquete]

in your tune for example you have at:
2761rpm - 90kpa: 53,5 VE
2761rpm - 110kpa: 46.5 VE
meaning this if your driving at 2761rpm stepping on the throtle at 90kpa you may or not have a good AFR, but when you push the throtle a litle bit to 110kpa you will have less fuel, that is not correct it showld be rising.
after correctly tuning that engine the VE maps should be smooth and rising between each cells, kinda like the base maps i gave you but with different values.
Same thing for ignition maps

[gregpe]

The VE and IGN table cannot look like this! IAT sensor must be connected because intake air temp. is substantial factor of fuel dose calculations.

Are you sure it is critical to being able to drive around at all? My car has no IAT sensor, but it is perfectly drivable. The problems I stated above do not relate to normal use, but for WOT use.

But even at WOT, the car does after all make 310 rear wheel HP, it does this without any IAT sensor. If the intake air temperature is most of the time around 65 degrees, then how much do really slight variations for this figure matter? It doesn't seem to matter much if the ambient temperature is 15 degrees or 5 degrees, the engine works more or less the same.

Please note: I'm not saying an IAT sensor is useless. I'm only saying that since my car is running at all, albeit with much less performance than it should have, it seems that you can, under some circumstances, maybe run the car without an IAT sensor.

On BTCC engine 1 deg on inlet temperature is 2 hp that what difference it made on 2.0 liter engine and 0.6 boost if i remember even early L jetronic has air intake temperature.... so there is a reason for IT cost of air temp sensor is about £20 if you buy Bosch or about £14 if you buy different brand so why for this relatively small amount of money you insist not using it... don't really understand...

[killerbee]

From my tests 30 degrees in IAT ( from 10 to 40 degC ) there is 10 % change in fuel

[PSI-Motor]

Thats is the absolute worst tune i have ever seen in my entire life and i have seen thousands!

This is how it looks.



Should look something like this.



Your ignition map



Should look something like this.








Note that this is not for your engine its for a V8! But you get some idea how it should look when its done by a professional tuner.

[diracdeltafunct]

The VE and IGN table cannot look like this! IAT sensor must be connected because intake air temp. is substantial factor of fuel dose calculations.

Are you sure it is critical to being able to drive around at all? My car has no IAT sensor, but it is perfectly drivable. The problems I stated above do not relate to normal use, but for WOT use.

But even at WOT, the car does after all make 310 rear wheel HP, it does this without any IAT sensor. If the intake air temperature is most of the time around 65 degrees, then how much do really slight variations for this figure matter? It doesn't seem to matter much if the ambient temperature is 15 degrees or 5 degrees, the engine works more or less the same.

Please note: I'm not saying an IAT sensor is useless. I'm only saying that since my car is running at all, albeit with much less performance than it should have, it seems that you can, under some circumstances, maybe run the car without an IAT sensor.

On BTCC engine 1 deg on inlet temperature is 2 hp that what difference it made on 2.0 liter engine and 0.6 boost if i remember even early L jetronic has air intake temperature.... so there is a reason for IT cost of air temp sensor is about £20 if you buy Bosch or about £14 if you buy different brand so why for this relatively small amount of money you insist not using it... don't really understand...

I do not insist on not using one. I actually have one that is not installed and I'm working towards getting it mounted correctly. The professional tuner that made this configuration didn't think to add an IAT sensor, and never mentioned any problems with not having one.

However, I am saying that my car runs more or less perfectly "fine" (if we ignore poor power, 310 rear wheel HP, slow spool) without any IAT sensor. Note that I'm not saying this is healthy for the engine, for all I know the engine could blow up any minute. But I am saying that from my end-user perspective, the engine has no noteworthy bad habits once it has warmed up.

The problems it does have are that when it is cold, I cannot step on the gas, it runs into very lean values. So I simply wait until it has warmed up. Do I want to have it like this? Of course not, I'm trying to do something about it.

The other problems it has are listed as before, but they do not reflect in a bad AFR reading from what I can tell so far.

[diracdeltafunct]

Thats is the absolute worst tune i have ever seen in my entire life and i have seen thousands!

This is how it looks.

Should look something like this.

Your ignition map

Should look something like this.

Note that this is not for your engine its for a V8! But you get some idea how it should look when its done by a professional tuner.

Thanks for your input.

What do you think the reason is that it looks so bad? Could it be because I have no IAT sensor, and the weird peaks compensate for this?

Could it be that there is something else seriously wrong with the setup of the car that warrants a weird map like this? The same tuner also basically rearranged the intercooler system, took apart the engine, added a new turbo, and did some other stuff. Maybe it is possible that there is something really wrong with the setup, and this weird ECU configuration masks these problems? Maybe this, combined with the fact it has no IAT sensor?

I'm just guessing, and I have no prior experience. This is literally my first car. What do you think?

[Jadzwin]

The configuration looks like the tuner doesn't know what he does. It has nothing to any hardware setup. The lack of IAT is a serious problem in aspects of proper engine work.

[Adamw]

I am probably just re-iterating what has already been said, but this map really is a total disaster all over and I would not push that engine at all until you get it improved. Do not go anywhere near that tuner again as it is very obvious they donot even understand the basic fundamentals of speed density efi. A few quick observations:

1. almost every car engine produced in the last 50 years should have a VE of about 100% at the torque peak, your VE map has 60%?. Mostly that is probably because they have the injector flow or engine capacity setting wrong but that means many of the compensations/trims will be applying less correction than they would if the VE map was correct.
2. IAT is probably the main reason you have a lean condition on cold start. This is because with the IAT fixed at 65°C the ECU thinks the air is much less dense than it really is so is injecting less fuel than it needs.
3. VE should peak at about the torque peak, your map has the VE peaking at max RPM, to me that suggests it is very likely that at least most of the important WOT cells have not been tested/tuned.
4. The ignition map when tuned correctly will be basically the opposite shape of the fuel map - ie smaller numbers around the torque peak with more timing either side of the dip. It is again obvious that this ignition map has not been tuned steady state as it would follow this general characteristic if it had been.
5. The fact that you have high EGT and low power (and that you havent blown the engine yet with this map) suggests that maybe the engine is actually receiving less advance than is commanded in that map. You need to check that your TDC mark is correct and that the timing is "synced" at both high and low RPM with a timing light.
6. Your dirty spark plugs look a little more like its burning oil too rather than just a tune issue. Does this engine blow smoke? Have you checked compression?

[PSI-Motor]

The only problem with your car is that the tuner isn't a tuner, and no the IAT doesn't make it look like that at all.

Get a good basemap, install IAT, go to a real tuner an get it tuned. Where are you from? There has to be a real tuner around there somewere ?

[Karel]

I am probably just re-iterating what has already been said, but this map really is a total disaster all over and I would not push that engine at all until you get it improved. Do not go anywhere near that tuner again as it is very obvious they donot even understand the basic fundamentals of speed density efi. A few quick observations:

1. almost every car engine produced in the last 50 years should have a VE of about 100% at the torque peak, your VE map has 60%?. Mostly that is probably because they have the injector flow or engine capacity setting wrong but that means many of the compensations/trims will be applying less correction than they would if the VE map was correct.
2. IAT is probably the main reason you have a lean condition on cold start. This is because with the IAT fixed at 65°C the ECU thinks the air is much less dense than it really is so is injecting less fuel than it needs.
3. VE should peak at about the torque peak, your map has the VE peaking at max RPM, to me that suggests it is very likely that at least most of the important WOT cells have not been tested/tuned.
4. The ignition map when tuned correctly will be basically the opposite shape of the fuel map - ie smaller numbers around the torque peak with more timing either side of the dip. It is again obvious that this ignition map has not been tuned steady state as it would follow this general characteristic if it had been.
5. The fact that you have high EGT and low power (and that you havent blown the engine yet with this map) suggests that maybe the engine is actually receiving less advance than is commanded in that map. You need to check that your TDC mark is correct and that the timing is "synced" at both high and low RPM with a timing light.
6. Your dirty spark plugs look a little more like its burning oil too rather than just a tune issue. Does this engine blow smoke? Have you checked compression?

I also think that this "protuner" knows nothing about tuning... but i can easly see some mistakes on your ideas.

add 1) Ok VE can be over 100% , but you still can have 50% in map, just becuase other factors, like wrong capacity of injectors in calculation, or wrong capacity of engine. Only problém is, taht if you dont put correct numbers on start, you always need to work with unrealistic numbers.... and thats bad for human brain

add 2) Yes you can run without IAT, emu has also "substitution" value for it, but your AFR will be very inaccurate, so if you want break your engine, you need to be reach... so wrong for your fuel economy, and also power

add 3) also some OEM maps are done very very rich on high load and high rpm just to save the engine. The engine looses so much power, that every driver feels that he need to put next gear ..... but it stil bad tuned.

add 4) yes, probalby the "tuner" did mistake, by exchanging orientation of the map or axis..... but more likely, he has no idea


i think thesis very good example, why i dont want to "just sell" the EMU. If the user has no idea what he is doing, he will destroy his car very fast, and after that he can talk shit and say that EMu is the problem...... but it is not. Emu is great !

[diracdeltafunct]

I am probably just re-iterating what has already been said, but this map really is a total disaster all over and I would not push that engine at all until you get it improved. Do not go anywhere near that tuner again as it is very obvious they donot even understand the basic fundamentals of speed density efi. A few quick observations:

1. almost every car engine produced in the last 50 years should have a VE of about 100% at the torque peak, your VE map has 60%?. Mostly that is probably because they have the injector flow or engine capacity setting wrong but that means many of the compensations/trims will be applying less correction than they would if the VE map was correct.
2. IAT is probably the main reason you have a lean condition on cold start. This is because with the IAT fixed at 65°C the ECU thinks the air is much less dense than it really is so is injecting less fuel than it needs.
3. VE should peak at about the torque peak, your map has the VE peaking at max RPM, to me that suggests it is very likely that at least most of the important WOT cells have not been tested/tuned.
4. The ignition map when tuned correctly will be basically the opposite shape of the fuel map - ie smaller numbers around the torque peak with more timing either side of the dip. It is again obvious that this ignition map has not been tuned steady state as it would follow this general characteristic if it had been.
5. The fact that you have high EGT and low power (and that you havent blown the engine yet with this map) suggests that maybe the engine is actually receiving less advance than is commanded in that map. You need to check that your TDC mark is correct and that the timing is "synced" at both high and low RPM with a timing light.
6. Your dirty spark plugs look a little more like its burning oil too rather than just a tune issue. Does this engine blow smoke? Have you checked compression?

This seems all reasonable to me, I agree with your statements.

I have not checked compression. It doesn't blow smoke as far as I know, do you mean literally smoke that you can visually see? In that case not that I've seen or noticed. Maybe there is some when suddenly giving it 100% throttle, but I would have to check.

I will ask the new tuner that I will visit in the near future to inspect the TDC mark with a timing light as you suggest.

[diracdeltafunct]

The only problem with your car is that the tuner isn't a tuner, and no the IAT doesn't make it look like that at all.

Get a good basemap, install IAT, go to a real tuner an get it tuned. Where are you from? There has to be a real tuner around there somewere ?

I'm in Norway. I have allocated some time with a new tuner that I will visit in the near future who I have an overall good impression of.

[diracdeltafunct]

I'm worried the knock sensor is not installed correctly.

When I look at the logs it never shows anything except on "Knock Engine Noise (V)", for this particular value, it seems to be correlated with RPM (when RPM is increasing), but sometimes it is inversely related (when RPM is lowered).

Is this normal? Should I expect to see something on "Knock Sensor Value (V)" or on "Knock ignition event" when there are no problems with the engine? I.e. is it normal to have such events during normal operation? I have yet to see a single engine knock in the logs, even at WOT and up to high RPM (I have stopped with this now). However, most worrying is that I have nothing at all ("0") on "Knock Level (V)" and "Knock Sensor Value (V)", yet "Knock Engine Noise (V)" shows something.

[ATS_Scott]

I'm worried the knock sensor is not installed correctly.

When I look at the logs it never shows anything except on "Knock Engine Noise (V)", for this particular value, it seems to be correlated with RPM (when RPM is increasing), but sometimes it is inversely related (when RPM is lowered).

Is this normal? Should I expect to see something on "Knock Sensor Value (V)" or on "Knock ignition event" when there are no problems with the engine? I.e. is it normal to have such events during normal operation? I have yet to see a single engine knock in the logs, even at WOT and up to high RPM (I have stopped with this now). However, most worrying is that I have nothing at all ("0") on "Knock Level (V)" and "Knock Sensor Value (V)", yet "Knock Engine Noise (V)" shows something.

Knock engine noise is defined in software so the EMU knows what YOU consider to be knock. It is the knock limit of what you want to allow. So what you see in the log is just following along on your engine noise table, so you can overlay actual knock voltage for comparison.

Your knock sensor is not turned on in sampling menu, and the frequency is way off for a 3sgte. The 2 closest options for the 3sgte are 6.64khz, and 6.94khz.

I tried to attach my config tables. but file was blocked...?
"The upload was rejected because the uploaded file was identified as a possible attack vector"

I'll email to you.

[Adamw]

Just noticed there is also the ignition Vs IAT table pulling 2.5deg of timing out full time too. Warm up enrichment table 1 is set up odd also - pulling fuel out between 20 & 70°C?

add 1) Ok VE can be over 100% , but you still can have 50% in map, just becuase other factors, like wrong capacity of injectors in calculation, or wrong capacity of engine. Only problém is, taht if you dont put correct numbers on start, you always need to work with unrealistic numbers.... and thats bad for human brain

Karel, yes I could be wrong with my comment #2. My comments were based on another similar VE based ecu that I have much more experience with so with the EMU there may not be any (undocumented) background calcs that reference predicted airmass - Some VE based ECU's do however so it may or may not be relevant with the EMU.

[Karel]

Just noticed there is also the ignition Vs IAT table pulling 2.5deg of timing out full time too. Warm up enrichment table 1 is set up odd also - pulling fuel out between 20 & 70°C?

add 1) Ok VE can be over 100% , but you still can have 50% in map, just becuase other factors, like wrong capacity of injectors in calculation, or wrong capacity of engine. Only problém is, taht if you dont put correct numbers on start, you always need to work with unrealistic numbers.... and thats bad for human brain

Karel, yes I could be wrong with my comment #2. My comments were based on another similar VE based ecu that I have much more experience with so with the EMU there may not be any (undocumented) background calcs that reference predicted airmass - Some VE based ECU's do however so it may or may not be relevant with the EMU.

If i am understanding the EMU correct it works like that:

Inserted 1000ccm injectors on 2000ccm engine

in setup 1000ccm injector / 2000ccm engine capacity = cca 100VE in peak

in setup 500ccm injector / 2000ccm engine capacity = cca 50VE in peak ( because EMu thinks that the injector are smaller, and calculates duty for twice as log time)

in setup 1000ccm injector / 3000ccm engine capacity = cca 67VE in peak ( EMU thinks that the volume of the engine is bigger, and he will put in more fuel for it)

etc......

the same with Temp sensor calibration, you can make engine work with wrong calibrated temp sensor. Your engine can be 100°C hot, even when the temp in EMu shows 5°C, it will still work, you can also make good compensations etc.... just you will alaways see wrong numbers. But it makes you wories if you look into the log so time back, beacause there will be no real information.



The only exception what i am doing wrong on purpose is the injector calibration, and only if the car runs on E85. If i am running 1700ccm injectors on E85, i am putting in that i have 1100-1200ccm injectors. Why? Because after that will the VE map looks very realistic.

[skogs]

OP: Doo you by any chance live in Bergen, Norway?

Edit: I see that you are based in Norway. I am willing to bet my GT4 that you have been screwed by the same tuner as me. T**p**ts?


viewtopic.php?f=19&t=71

[diracdeltafunct]

OP: Doo you by any chance live in Bergen, Norway?

Edit: I see that you are based in Norway. I am willing to bet my GT4 that you have been screwed by the same tuner as me. T**p**ts?


viewtopic.php?f=19&t=71

Yes, the same.