Ecumaster forum

Hi,
I am about to start a Soarer with a 1JZ and the 12 tooth trigger Wheel, but I cant get the spark correct.
I use VAG COP.

Trigger seems to work fine, it triggers about 200rpm at cranking but i get no spark or sporadic spark but that is not often. However, when I turn off the ignition I get one or several sparks.
I have constant voltage to the EMU and to the VAG COPs so nothing wrong there. Voltage is about 10-11v when cranking.

I have tried more or less all combinations for the trigger settings (Rising/falling, with or without cam sync and more or less all trigger wheels that could be logic to use/try) with no success. Multitooth with 12 teeth is what i use when i get sparks described above.

I have attached my settings. However, i could not attach the .emu extension so i changed it to .doc. Maybe something to look into?


Any ideas is appriciated, seems that many people run the 2jz with EMU but i cant get this one to spark correct...

Do VAG coils have built in amplifiers? You should also look at what output is assigned to ignition events 1-6.

GREY: You are using VAG COPs , but they have ingnitor, so you need to switch setting to "Coils with bulit in amplifier"

Ignition events 1-6 cant be all on Ignition output 1 ! (firing order 153624)


I am using also 1JZ + VAG Cops, it works great ! if correct configured.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=625196690909008

I have no doubt, 1jz 2jz are the most popular engines working with emu in all configurations.

My set up for triggers and ignition outputs:
Cam shaft sensor #1 (the one in the middle of head)

firing order 1-5-3-6-2-4

my settings 2jz
use Cam sensor #2

If you look at the cam and crank triggers on the scope, you will see they should both be set to falling edge. Also, I think you'll find that the secondary trigger sensitivity rpm setting will need to be set to something below 1000.

Kurt wrote:If you look at the cam and crank triggers on the scope, you will see they should both be set to falling edge. Also, I think you'll find that the secondary trigger sensitivity rpm setting will need to be set to something below 1000.

i have made couple of 1jz and 2jz and my settings work great for me. What interesting, people use resistors and sensitivity switches, and i don't need to do this (maybe because of custom wirings and new shielded wires for cam, cas sensors) thats why sensitivity rpm is set higher then rpm rev limit

whats good for me, may not work for other

It can depends how the sensors are connected (polarity)

that's true and that's why I always advice to check ignition timing with strobe lamp.

Indeed, polarity matters. If pinned as it came from the factory, falling edge is the correct setting for both cam and crank. You can check this with an oscilloscope. You can also get the EMU scope data at idle, mid, and high rpm and see how much the cam trigger moves between the crank teeth. If it stays towards the middle and does not get close to the crank tooth, then you will be fine. Checking timing with a strobe light won't show any issue with drifting of the cam signal until it crosses past a crank tooth and shifts timing (30° with the 12 tooth crank wheel).

Hi,
Thanks for all the answers. I look at the file i uploaded and it was totally wrong. I was in a bit of hurry Before my vacation the next day so i sent the wrong file, a lab file.
However, why i had 1 on all 6 cylinders is that i needed to see if it made any difference if i had it on all cylinders instead of only one. Strange it said "Coils without amp", because I have never run it with that.

Anyways, I am running Waste spark so cylinder 1+6, 2+5 and 3+4 is connected to eachothers ignition output on the EMU.
So my ignition settings is accually:
Event 1 = 1 (goes to cylinder 1 and 6)
Event 2 = 2 (goes to cylinder 2 and 5)
Event 3 = 3 (goes to cylinder 3 and 4)
Event 4 = 1 (goes to cylinder 1 and 6)
Event 5 = 2 (goes to cylinder 2 and 5)
Event 6 = 3 (goes to cylinder 3 and 4)

Do i need to fill out the event 4-6?

I will try the settings tomorrow. While i was on vacation i thought a Little about the problem and maybe i got too low Power to the VAG COP so they dont make any spark. I have 10-11v when cranking when the battery is fully loaded. 9-10v when I have cranked the engine for a while.

So,
I have now tried to start it again and it was not the settings that was the problem Before (however the settings i sent here was totally wrong since i had to try all different kinds of settings).
Problem seems to be that when the voltage of the battery (the voltage measured at VAG COP has the same as the battery) goes down to 10.5-10v at cranking, the VAG COP stops to ignite. As long as i am above 10.5v Everything seems to work OK. However i have not got the timing and fuel right yet and it is a narrow voltage window from 11v to 10.5v when cranking.
I know that i had some problems on Another car with the VAG COP when running at 8-9v due to voltage drop through the cables but 10v should work dont you Think?
The Engine cranks fine with good speed (205rpm) at 10v.

Has anyone run into this problem Before?


So, now i am waiting for the battery and extra battery to reload, then i might get it to run. It is Close now.

Do anyone have the EMU settings for 6 cylinder running waste spark and 2 injectors per injector input?
Pinout i use for...

...Ignition:
#1 (G8) = Cylinder 1 and 6
#3 (G9) = Cylinder 2 and 5
#6 (G1) = Cylinder 3 and 4

...Injector:
#1 (G7) = Cylinder 1 and 4
#2 (G15) = Cylinder 3 and 5
#3 (G23) = Cylinder 2 and 6

Also if anyone has the idle settings for the 1JZ stepper motor i would be very grateful.
My pinout is:
Stepper motor 1A = Idle Solenoid Valve 1
Stepper motor 1B = Idle Solenoid Valve 3
Stepper motor 2A = Idle Solenoid Valve 2
Stepper motor 2B = Idle Solenoid Valve 4







Cheers,
Joakim

you will need to play with the first trigger tooth number to set the offset from the sync. Once you are in the correct range then you need then fine tune with the trigger angle to "zero" in TDC. First trigger tooth could be anything up to 11 with wast spark.

I often like to install a relay straight from the battery to power the coils and just activate the relay with switched ignition, this will help to reduce the voltage drop you are experiencing.

ps. i have to ask why you are running wast spark when you have 6 coils and 6 drivers?? that would be a much more reliable setup, that would also help your voltage situation since you will only be powering up 1 coil dwell at a time

pps you have also wired your coils up to IG drivers 1,3,6 but you have configured your software to fire 123123!! if you are using IG drivers 136 then you need to configure the software to use the same channels ie. 136136

Thanks for your answer, however:

RHD wrote:you will need to play with the first trigger tooth number to set the offset from the sync. Once you are in the correct range then you need then fine tune with the trigger angle to "zero" in TDC. First trigger tooth could be anything up to 11 with wast spark.

This is what i have done, however i dont have enough voltage to the VAG COPs so i get no spark below 10.5v... I know how to get the timing correct. Right now it is just a matter of getting enough voltage to get a reference spark from cylinder 1.

RHD wrote:I often like to install a relay straight from the battery to power the coils and just activate the relay with switched ignition, this will help to reduce the voltage drop you are experiencing.

I am not experiencing any voltage drop. Voltage at the VAG COPs are the same as on the battery.
I also do this every time i can. I have installed a 2,5mm2 wire to the relay driven by the fuelpump AUX output and then separate 2,5mm2 wiring to the VAG COPs.

RHD wrote:ps. i have to ask why you are running wast spark when you have 6 coils and 6 drivers?? that would be a much more reliable setup, that would also help your voltage situation since you will only be powering up 1 coil dwell at a time

Because i did not have enough space for 6 wires. However since i am running waste spark it does not matter if i run with 3 or 6 wires, the dwell has nothing to do with this problem. Problem seems more to be on the VAG COP main voltage.

RHD wrote:pps you have also wired your coils up to IG drivers 1,3,6 but you have configured your software to fire 123123!! if you are using IG drivers 136 then you need to configure the software to use the same channels ie. 136136

I have not configured my software to fire 123123, my settings are 1+2, 3+4 and 5+6 at the moment (or i guess you can run 136136 too), see my last post.
However i need to know if it makes any difference to run 1+2, 3+4, 5+6 settings compared to only 136136.
Also, i need to know if i have to run it twice, like this setting:
Ignition event 1 = 1+2
Ignition event 2 = 3+4
Ignition event 3 = 5+6
Ignition event 4 = 1+2
Ignition event 5 = 3+4
Ignition event 6 = 5+6

or if it is enough with this setting:
Ignition event 1 = 1+2
Ignition event 2 = 3+4
Ignition event 3 = 5+6
Ignition event 4 = None
Ignition event 5 = None
Ignition event 6 = None


Thanks,
Joakim

1+2
3+4
5+6
1+2
3+4
5+6

Use all 6 injector outputs
Cyl 1 to 1
Cyl 2 to 2
And so on.

Start with injector phasing
153624.
When it runs on idle test changing.
415362
241536
624153
And so on untill it runs smooth on idle.
Extreme difference on the car between using 3 injector outputs and using 6 and getting the phase correct.

Kurt wrote:Indeed, polarity matters. If pinned as it came from the factory, falling edge is the correct setting for both cam and crank. You can check this with an oscilloscope. You can also get the EMU scope data at idle, mid, and high rpm and see how much the cam trigger moves between the crank teeth. If it stays towards the middle and does not get close to the crank tooth, then you will be fine. Checking timing with a strobe light won't show any issue with drifting of the cam signal until it crosses past a crank tooth and shifts timing (30° with the 12 tooth crank wheel).

I can agree to this. Falling edge on both is the correct one for me. When i used Rising edge on the cam sensor the ignition was flipping between different revs. Low revs had one base ignition and high revs had Another even though i had it locked on the same degrees. It was about 30-40 degrees difference.

So, i got the Engine running. With a fully loaded battery the car started and with some tuning the car idled smooth at 950 revs.
I have attached my settings.

Can anyone verify my idle settings?


Cheers,
Joakim