Is anyone using the DET3 and running E85? What is necessary to do this effectively?
Thanks.
E85 fuel
Re: E85 fuel
Hard to say without a little more information.
Firstly, we don't know how much bigger of an injector can be controlled in piggyback mode. If you are in FIT mode, then injector size isn't a problem.
Secondly it also depends on the car, if it's a nissan, you're not able to ADVANCE timing, so running E85 isn't really a worth while option.
Firstly, we don't know how much bigger of an injector can be controlled in piggyback mode. If you are in FIT mode, then injector size isn't a problem.
Secondly it also depends on the car, if it's a nissan, you're not able to ADVANCE timing, so running E85 isn't really a worth while option.
Re: E85 fuel
Thanks for the speedy reply!
Ok, interesting...how is that we don't know what size injector could be used in piggyback mode? Wouldn't this be necessary in the design criteria of the unit? It does make sense though that I couldn't find it published anywhere. :)
Secondly, this is on a Toyota MR2 Turbo. I have just removed my standalone EMS and want to try this unit while I'm considering the EMU next year. I do have maps for timing advance so that would be beneficial, but not required. I would simply prefer to run E85 because of the lower combustion temps. I'm running a modified turbo well past it's design specs and it generates very high EGT's.
Why can you NOT control timing on a Nissan vehicle? Is this because of the way this unit works with the factory Nissan ECU? How did you determine that? Would it be the same for Toyota cars?
Thanks!
Ok, interesting...how is that we don't know what size injector could be used in piggyback mode? Wouldn't this be necessary in the design criteria of the unit? It does make sense though that I couldn't find it published anywhere. :)
Secondly, this is on a Toyota MR2 Turbo. I have just removed my standalone EMS and want to try this unit while I'm considering the EMU next year. I do have maps for timing advance so that would be beneficial, but not required. I would simply prefer to run E85 because of the lower combustion temps. I'm running a modified turbo well past it's design specs and it generates very high EGT's.
Why can you NOT control timing on a Nissan vehicle? Is this because of the way this unit works with the factory Nissan ECU? How did you determine that? Would it be the same for Toyota cars?
Thanks!
Re: E85 fuel
I think the reason why we don't really know about how much more injector we can, is because everyone moves to FIT mode pretty quickly. I was given a DET, but knew I was going EMU down the road, so I only played with piggyback mode.
It actually comes down from the factory CAS. I'm not really too sure the tech specs on it.
I literally took a timing light to my motor, and advanced timing, and noticed it didn't jump whatsoever, but the moment I pulled timing it jumped. Nissan ECU logic is pretty much if it has less signal on the MAF, then it assumes it to be leaner, and thus adds timing.
So I suppose if someone where in FIT mode, (since you have direct control over the injectors), you could advance timing by tricking the MAF signal. It would think it's running leaner, advance timing, but would have no control over the injectors whatsoever.
It actually comes down from the factory CAS. I'm not really too sure the tech specs on it.
I literally took a timing light to my motor, and advanced timing, and noticed it didn't jump whatsoever, but the moment I pulled timing it jumped. Nissan ECU logic is pretty much if it has less signal on the MAF, then it assumes it to be leaner, and thus adds timing.
So I suppose if someone where in FIT mode, (since you have direct control over the injectors), you could advance timing by tricking the MAF signal. It would think it's running leaner, advance timing, but would have no control over the injectors whatsoever.
Re: E85 fuel
Interesting...
Ok, yeah, my concern is actually being able to control the timing so that while tricking the ECU, it DOESN'T advance the timing simulating a lower load environment. I would be happy to install a smaller injector (I have 1200cc), but I don't know how large a range the piggyback mode can accommodate. I have heard that it is in the range of about 40%.
I would like to eliminate my AFM and direct control the fuel, but I'm concerned that I will not have control on the timing, since I suspect the unit is still providing an AFM signal to the ECU, and it will have been modified based on the 4 bar internal MAP sensor. I would like to know what that signal looks like and if the DET3 generates a MAF signal from its own internal speed density calculations or is simply still tricking the ECU. :)
Ok, yeah, my concern is actually being able to control the timing so that while tricking the ECU, it DOESN'T advance the timing simulating a lower load environment. I would be happy to install a smaller injector (I have 1200cc), but I don't know how large a range the piggyback mode can accommodate. I have heard that it is in the range of about 40%.
I would like to eliminate my AFM and direct control the fuel, but I'm concerned that I will not have control on the timing, since I suspect the unit is still providing an AFM signal to the ECU, and it will have been modified based on the 4 bar internal MAP sensor. I would like to know what that signal looks like and if the DET3 generates a MAF signal from its own internal speed density calculations or is simply still tricking the ECU. :)
Re: E85 fuel
Okay, so I can answer that for you.
When you delete the MAF, you actually have to do a few things before you do.
1st is you'll tune it as is. Make sure it runs great.
Once that is done, you'll go to log and do various loads of driving (cruising, wot, highway etc), and it'll generate a new map for you. You'll have to clean it up obviously, and you'll have to add a IAT sensor as well too. But at that point you'll be able to delete the MAF (some folks have had issues with deleting the maf, mainly throwing CEL's for the factory IAT, but a resistor seems to do the trick).
As far as ECU signal goes, it pretty much feeds a signal based on your VE table, so when you add fuel to the table, it should generate a new signal to the ECU for the MAF reading.
Personally, if you are looking to keep the DET3, I would say go ahead and move over to FIT mode and be done with it.
When you delete the MAF, you actually have to do a few things before you do.
1st is you'll tune it as is. Make sure it runs great.
Once that is done, you'll go to log and do various loads of driving (cruising, wot, highway etc), and it'll generate a new map for you. You'll have to clean it up obviously, and you'll have to add a IAT sensor as well too. But at that point you'll be able to delete the MAF (some folks have had issues with deleting the maf, mainly throwing CEL's for the factory IAT, but a resistor seems to do the trick).
As far as ECU signal goes, it pretty much feeds a signal based on your VE table, so when you add fuel to the table, it should generate a new signal to the ECU for the MAF reading.
Personally, if you are looking to keep the DET3, I would say go ahead and move over to FIT mode and be done with it.
Re: E85 fuel
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, ok. I read that some people are putting in the DET3 while still using the AFM and logging/recording to generate a a fuel map. I'm assuming this is to be used in the FIT mode, correct?
I *could* do that, except I would have to also go back to my stock injectors (440cc) to run on the OEM ECU in piggyback mode. I was trying to avoid that step. I'm not sure if it will help or not to do that step. Once I go into FIT mode (with a map recorded or not), I will bump back up to 1200cc injectors and E85 fuel. I will have to completely tune that out either way.
The question I have is...what happens with the timing? Once I eliminate the ECU, install the IAT, and I'm generating air flow signal using the internal 4 bar MAP and the IAT, is the DET3 generating an AFM signal to send to the ECU? If so, is the ECU using internal timing maps, based on the created AFM signal from the DET3 (based on the temp and pressure signals)?
I know we can control timing, but I assume the timing is NOT directly controlled like the injectors are directly controlled, correct? What will happen with timing when the AFM signal being generated by the DET3 is maxed out (passing a maximum voltage - likely 4.5V)? I know on the fuel side we can continue to add fuel and use the temp and pressure sensor to control properly, but I'm wondering what is happening with timing inside the OEM ECU? Is it staying constant? If so, that might be alright. I can just continue to add in some additional timing.
Thoughts?
I *could* do that, except I would have to also go back to my stock injectors (440cc) to run on the OEM ECU in piggyback mode. I was trying to avoid that step. I'm not sure if it will help or not to do that step. Once I go into FIT mode (with a map recorded or not), I will bump back up to 1200cc injectors and E85 fuel. I will have to completely tune that out either way.
The question I have is...what happens with the timing? Once I eliminate the ECU, install the IAT, and I'm generating air flow signal using the internal 4 bar MAP and the IAT, is the DET3 generating an AFM signal to send to the ECU? If so, is the ECU using internal timing maps, based on the created AFM signal from the DET3 (based on the temp and pressure signals)?
I know we can control timing, but I assume the timing is NOT directly controlled like the injectors are directly controlled, correct? What will happen with timing when the AFM signal being generated by the DET3 is maxed out (passing a maximum voltage - likely 4.5V)? I know on the fuel side we can continue to add fuel and use the temp and pressure sensor to control properly, but I'm wondering what is happening with timing inside the OEM ECU? Is it staying constant? If so, that might be alright. I can just continue to add in some additional timing.
Thoughts?
Re: E85 fuel
I have no idea what is happening with timing. I'm assuming that it's going up with Load/RPM's. I don't really know how the OE logic works when it comes to timing.
When you delete the MAF, the DET3 will be simulating an AFM signal to the ECU.
Timing is a +/- deal. So lets say 1000 RPM's @ .4 load, and timing is 15 degrees. With the DET3 you should be able to add/subtract from that number.
You cannot input a number, and have it run that number like in a standalone.
So if you look at your timing table it'll all be 0. If you put 15 in there, it will ADD 15 degrees. If you put -15, it will SUBTRACT 15 degrees.
If we use the example as above, then you add 5, it will turn 15 to 20, and if you put in -5, then it will turn the 15 to 10.
When you delete the MAF, the DET3 will be simulating an AFM signal to the ECU.
Timing is a +/- deal. So lets say 1000 RPM's @ .4 load, and timing is 15 degrees. With the DET3 you should be able to add/subtract from that number.
You cannot input a number, and have it run that number like in a standalone.
So if you look at your timing table it'll all be 0. If you put 15 in there, it will ADD 15 degrees. If you put -15, it will SUBTRACT 15 degrees.
If we use the example as above, then you add 5, it will turn 15 to 20, and if you put in -5, then it will turn the 15 to 10.
Re: E85 fuel
Ok, thanks. Yeah, that is what I was figuring was happening. It makes sense, after reading about the "learning" the DET3 is doing while running the car with the AFM attached initially. It appears that it builds a 3D map from logging data. I wonder if this is just fueling data, or also timing. I read that the logging feature will capture ignition "angle". Assuming that is timing advance, this could be very powerful to capture exactly what the OEM timing is doing too.
I'll probably have to log on the stock 440cc injectors initially, get as much of the map as I can, and then turn up the boost until I max out the 440's. Then, hopefully, I can switch to the larger injectors and attempt to extrapolate the fueling data based on much larger injectors.
One issue I can see happening is, technically I will max out the AFM at about 270RWHP (uncorrected). At that point, the signal the AFM is putting out will be maxed out (5V, or might even be 4.5V, not sure what the range actually is yet)and this is where the timing advance will get a little tricky.
If the AFM is maxed out and the ECU is getting a constant 5V signal, then it will continue to believe its getting the same airflow, all the time after that point. On the fuel side that isn't such a big deal because we are cutting of the complete signal from the ECU to the injectors and using the piggy back to drive them injectors directly. This will not be the case on the timing side. The ECU is still sending a signal to the ignition telling it when to fire.
So, in theory, as RPM goes up and the airflow the ECU sees from the AFM signal is the same value (stuck maxed out at 5V), even if technically the AFM is deleted and we're using the internal learned tables from the piggyback, the timing could still advance some, depending on what the ECU timing is programmed to do at that RPM and AFM voltage.
So you know if anyone who is logging this data is also getting timing data? I'd love to see what their OEM ECU timing maps look like. This could help determine whether or not we can safely control timing advance on the DET3 after the AFM signal is maxed out.
Either way, whether in piggyback mode or FIT mode, my guess is the DET3 will be sending a signal to the ECU with a value beyond the range (5V) that the ECU can determine what to do with it, once we exceed the maximum airflow of the AFM's designed range.
I'll probably have to log on the stock 440cc injectors initially, get as much of the map as I can, and then turn up the boost until I max out the 440's. Then, hopefully, I can switch to the larger injectors and attempt to extrapolate the fueling data based on much larger injectors.
One issue I can see happening is, technically I will max out the AFM at about 270RWHP (uncorrected). At that point, the signal the AFM is putting out will be maxed out (5V, or might even be 4.5V, not sure what the range actually is yet)and this is where the timing advance will get a little tricky.
If the AFM is maxed out and the ECU is getting a constant 5V signal, then it will continue to believe its getting the same airflow, all the time after that point. On the fuel side that isn't such a big deal because we are cutting of the complete signal from the ECU to the injectors and using the piggy back to drive them injectors directly. This will not be the case on the timing side. The ECU is still sending a signal to the ignition telling it when to fire.
So, in theory, as RPM goes up and the airflow the ECU sees from the AFM signal is the same value (stuck maxed out at 5V), even if technically the AFM is deleted and we're using the internal learned tables from the piggyback, the timing could still advance some, depending on what the ECU timing is programmed to do at that RPM and AFM voltage.
So you know if anyone who is logging this data is also getting timing data? I'd love to see what their OEM ECU timing maps look like. This could help determine whether or not we can safely control timing advance on the DET3 after the AFM signal is maxed out.
Either way, whether in piggyback mode or FIT mode, my guess is the DET3 will be sending a signal to the ECU with a value beyond the range (5V) that the ECU can determine what to do with it, once we exceed the maximum airflow of the AFM's designed range.
Re: E85 fuel
Injector size should never be a problem. If you are just using as a piggy back you can add 30% larger injectors with zero correction because you need that much more fuel anyways just to stay stoich.
The ECU 02 sensors measure air left after combustion so, getting to stoic on e85 is like 9.x:1 vs 14.7.
On a wb02 meant for gas you still aim for 14.7 on cruise which really is lambda 1.
So if you are going from 440 to say 600 your adjustment is like 10% or less
The ECU 02 sensors measure air left after combustion so, getting to stoic on e85 is like 9.x:1 vs 14.7.
On a wb02 meant for gas you still aim for 14.7 on cruise which really is lambda 1.
So if you are going from 440 to say 600 your adjustment is like 10% or less