Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

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2J-240
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Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by 2J-240 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:09 am

Hey guys!

I have a bit of a problem, Ive finally gotten most of the bugs out of my car and the tune is nearly spot on for the VE table so far, but i am running into an issue that is very intermittent. This problem only occurs every once in awhile, I can probably drive for 10 hours and this problem will occur maybe twice, and its completely random sometimes its ten minutes after I start the car and its at idle, sometimes its 3 hours into street tuning, sometimes on the highway and sometimes just cruising. I dont believe it is RPM dependant, Temp dependant, or anything like that, very much so random. so lets me explain the symptoms:

The best way to describe the problem is to imagine as if the fuel pressure regulator stopped regulating at the normal 3 bar system and has increased the fuel pressure to something higher, however the data i get from my logs does not display an increase in fuel pressure. basically i will be cruising, or idling around 14.7 AFR or and it all of a sudden goes to 11.0 AFR and will not recover from that. If i let out of the throttle completely it will bog down and die, so if i want it to stay alive i have to keep bouncing on and off of the throttle to keep it alive. The only way i can fix this issue is to pull over and restart the car and boom the problem is gone, literally just turn the car off and right back on and the problem is gone until its next random appearance. One weird thing i did notice is that if i keep it in gear while its doing this and jsut try to cruise itll be rich, but if i keep it in gear and give it like 15 percent throttle to accel to a slightly higher speed the AFRs are where they should be, slightly more rich than stoich, as it should be for light throttle. it is almost like the low load and idle portions of the map have gone haywire and are much more rich. I have look at all the availible fuel trims to make sure its nothing trying to change fueling, and have found nothing. I have log this instance and tried looking at any and all sensor readings and the only thing i see changing is the AFRs, I can not for the life of me find a correlation with any other sensors :(

I am also working on getting the VVTI working on the car and im running into issues that you can see in the time slots below. I am using the parameters provided on the ecu master facebook page and i will include a pdf of what i am following(its at the bottom of the PDF), but it seems as though i am getting some negative values and that doesnt seems right.

Times on my log that are of interest:

Cam Angle -56 at 15:35
Fueling problem at 34:00

My tune currently has the output set to none because i did not want to drive with the cam settings being wonky. Sorry for the novel, im just trying to be thorough.

Thank you,
Kyle
Attachments
2JZ VVTi.pdf
The VVTI PDF
(153.74KiB)Downloaded 37 times
log 10-3-16.emulog
The Log
(1.89MiB)Downloaded 45 times
2jz gte.emu
Current Tune
(101.14KiB)Downloaded 48 times

Karel
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by Karel » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:22 am

Hi,
it looks like you have just mega rich idle and low load areas. Nothing more. I see you have huge injector 1600ccm (like i am using 1700ccm) and you need to tune down the low load areas down in VE table. Try to lower down the number in are 40-92VE and 600-12199RPM to 80% of original values.

This should give you better mixture, and than just tune it better.

nickbmw
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by nickbmw » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:45 am

What injectors do you have? If you have the cheap lpg Bosch ones, throw them in the bin.

Karel
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by Karel » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:13 am

nickbmw wrote:What injectors do you have? If you have the cheap lpg Bosch ones, throw them in the bin.
NO worry Nick ;-)

nickbmw
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by nickbmw » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:26 am

Karel wrote:
nickbmw wrote:What injectors do you have? If you have the cheap lpg Bosch ones, throw them in the bin.
NO worry Nick ;-)
I am not refering to you, i am refering to the topic starter. Bosch part number 0280158827, completely junk

Karel
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by Karel » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:29 pm

nickbmw wrote:
Karel wrote:
nickbmw wrote:What injectors do you have? If you have the cheap lpg Bosch ones, throw them in the bin.
NO worry Nick ;-)
I am not refering to you, i am refering to the topic starter. Bosch part number 0280158827, completely junk
Sorry Mate, but this are modern EV14 injectors , and even companies like Injector Dynamics, Deathwerks etc are using them as start product, what they modify (or even not) a little bit and sell as own product.

nickbmw
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by nickbmw » Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:04 pm

Have you used them for gasoline? Not EV14 in general, this part number precisely. I am pretty sure that no. When you use them and see what issues they cause, we can talk again.

To the op, if you have these injectors, don't bother. Take them out and use something else. They cause exactly what you describe. As soon as they heat up a bit, they stop functioning properly.

Karel
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by Karel » Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:54 pm

nickbmw wrote:Have you used them for gasoline? Not EV14 in general, this part number precisely. I am pretty sure that no. When you use them and see what issues they cause, we can talk again.

To the op, if you have these injectors, don't bother. Take them out and use something else. They cause exactly what you describe. As soon as they heat up a bit, they stop functioning properly.
I am using them for E85, and they work flawlesly. I have them on my own Car, and also many customer Cars. No issue at all. We did find one trouble , but was not injector related, but E85 related. One of my customer took his engine out, and used it after one year .... the fuel systém was full of rust, also the injectors. After cleaning everything, also injectors in ultrasonic cleaner, everything worked again. I was really impressed how perfect they are controlable. They are working smoother than original 440ccm on 2JZ engine, even at idle, better starts etc... Really no issues.

Some of my Customers are also using the 2200ccm version, also for Methanol..... So dont be so sceptic.


EDIT: Hmmmm may be there is one thing to think about. They dont have filter inside, so if you have dirt in your fuel systém, they can be easly damaged by dirt.

nickbmw
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by nickbmw » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:03 pm

Karel wrote:
nickbmw wrote:Have you used them for gasoline? Not EV14 in general, this part number precisely. I am pretty sure that no. When you use them and see what issues they cause, we can talk again.

To the op, if you have these injectors, don't bother. Take them out and use something else. They cause exactly what you describe. As soon as they heat up a bit, they stop functioning properly.
I am using them for E85, and they work flawlesly. I have them on my own Car, and also many customer Cars. No issue at all. We did find one trouble , but was not injector related, but E85 related. One of my customer took his engine out, and used it after one year .... the fuel systém was full of rust, also the injectors. After cleaning everything, also injectors in ultrasonic cleaner, everything worked again. I was really impressed how perfect they are controlable. They are working smoother than original 440ccm on 2JZ engine, even at idle, better starts etc... Really no issues.

Some of my Customers are also using the 2200ccm version, also for Methanol..... So dont be so sceptic.
I am sceptic, because we took them out from two engines, one 700hp 3SGTE and a 600hp turbo B20, and they went straight in the bin, so i am talking by experience. They are uncontrollable at low pws, and they were causing hard cut outs at high rpm full throttle. Replaced with ID 1000 on the B20, and everything worked perfect right away with some adjustments. Unknown manufacturer 1200cc on the 3SGTE, again perfect right away after the injector swap and some dialing of the map. Adjusted everything perfect, and after half an hour of driving the afrs were dropping to 10s, both did exactly the same. B20 on EMU and 3SGTE on EFi Euro1. I couldn't belive it was the injectors, until i did a search in google only to find out other people had the exact same problems with these little junk pieces. So i do not know if they behave better with e85, but with regular gasoline, they are completely junk.

PSI-Motor
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by PSI-Motor » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:35 pm

I refuse to tune cars with those injectors. Real junk and super sensitive for heat.
EcuMaster Sweden

nickbmw
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by nickbmw » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:52 pm

PSI-Motor wrote:I refuse to tune cars with those injectors. Real junk and super sensitive for heat.
And you do very well, it's practically impossible to tune anything with these crap injectors

2J-240
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by 2J-240 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:23 am

Karen,

Please take another look at the log, although it may just seem like a mega rich area due to the map, I assure you thats not the issue. Take a look at the steady state low load cruising at 31:30 to 32:10. While low load and cruising it is fine, until this moment happens. And then again at idle, 32:40 to 33:10 idles like a charm. I know this looks like a simple map rich issue but driving the car tells an entirely different issue. I can drive in the exact area that the tune went super rich in, same RPM and load and it will not replicate said issue. Im sorry if im coming across as negligent or ignorant but i have been told by Zach D. and this forum that its just a super rich spot in the map but its literally like a switch flips and the thing goes into limp mode. After closer examination, this particular log doesnt illustrate the issue that clearly, I will find another log and post it.

Nick,

These are the 1600CC bosch injectors. I know these arent the best injectors, and ive read the horror stories about them, but my issue doesnt seem to correlate exactly with what ive read. Ive read that some of these injectors have a problem when they get warm, and they go real lean. My problem seems to be the exact opposite and go pig rich, BUT simply turning the car off for half a second and turning it back on fixes the issue so i do not think it is said issue. especially since it can happen less than five minutes after starting the car or 6 hours into tuning. It sounds like a wonky enrichment trying to dump fuel but i havent noticed any weird enrichments.

Ill post a better log soon! Thanks for the helps thus far.

nickbmw
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by nickbmw » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:51 am

No matter what, i would still take out those injectors asap mate, and then continue diagnosing to find the problem if it persists. I agree that your problems don't completely match, but it's not that far off.

Karel
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by Karel » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:52 am

nickbmw wrote:No matter what, i would still take out those injectors asap mate, and then continue diagnosing to find the problem if it persists. I agree that your problems don't completely match, but it's not that far off.
Ok Nick, i see are little bit polarisated deppending on your experiences with some trouble. You have trouble only with the 1700ccm version or also with the 2200ccm 0280158821 ?
I really didnt had problems with any new Bosch product, buying only from official dealership from Robert Bosch Company, so i cant be buying some fake products. I fould very poor quality on Siemens Injector, i tested some on flowbench and from 4pieces the best and the worst were 11% difference in flow. In oposite the Bosch injectors always in 2% range (testing 2ms, 5ms, 10ms, or flow).
And what about very low duty regulation .... on Bosch no problém at all, the direct oposite are for me the FIC injectors...... terrible slow and rough response

nickbmw
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by nickbmw » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:51 am

I try to use Bosch EV14 injectors in all engines, but these were real bad. As you can see i am not the only one with a bad experience, and i know more people from over here that took them out, it's not just me. Injectors were purcahsed from Germany from a Bosch dealer as well. I haven't used the 2200cc version, only the 1600-1700cc

Karel
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by Karel » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:41 pm

nickbmw wrote:I try to use Bosch EV14 injectors in all engines, but these were real bad. As you can see i am not the only one with a bad experience, and i know more people from over here that took them out, it's not just me. Injectors were purcahsed from Germany from a Bosch dealer as well. I haven't used the 2200cc version, only the 1600-1700cc
May be i have no problems until now, because we are using them mostly not over 50% Duty cycle. I think the biggest load was 67% at all. And i am also pretty sure, that companies like ID or Deatchwerks are using EV14 cores like base for their products. They are changing the tips, flowmatching them etc... but this are still Bosch EV14 injectors. So i will be more carefull watching for some issue, after you told me about it.

nickbmw
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by nickbmw » Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:18 pm

Just out of curiosity, why do you use so "large" injectors if you don't need them? Bosch also makes 960cc EV14s that are designed for gasoline, not CNG. I haven't tested these yet, but i guess they will be much better.

Karel
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by Karel » Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:50 pm

nickbmw wrote:Just out of curiosity, why do you use so "large" injectors if you don't need them? Bosch also makes 960cc EV14s that are designed for gasoline, not CNG. I haven't tested these yet, but i guess they will be much better.
I was testing them on EMU. Just wanted to test something "unreasonable" large , wanted to test EMUs ability, and they worked so well , that i dont need to use smaller, even on 400HP 3L engine.

nickbmw
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by nickbmw » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:34 pm

Karel wrote:
nickbmw wrote:Just out of curiosity, why do you use so "large" injectors if you don't need them? Bosch also makes 960cc EV14s that are designed for gasoline, not CNG. I haven't tested these yet, but i guess they will be much better.
I was testing them on EMU. Just wanted to test something "unreasonable" large , wanted to test EMUs ability, and they worked so well , that i dont need to use smaller, even on 400HP 3L engine.
This only has downsides and no advantages, but each to his opinion :)

Welshman
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Re: Strange over fueling issue NEED HELPS

Post by Welshman » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:53 am

the EMU controls injectors fine , i have ID2000s in my 3sgte on pump and race fuel

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